It seems safe to say that the Twins value the presence of veteran experience on their roster. This has been evident in their personnel moves throughout recent history.
When Jason Bartlett played his way up to the big leagues, Ron Gardenhire blocked him with Juan Castro, preferring the latter's infield leadership.
When Matt Garza and Kevin Slowey were knocking on the big-league door in 2007, the Twins signed Ramon Ortiz and Sidney Ponson to build a reserve and avoid rolling with a bunch of rookie starters.
There was the trade for (and subsequent re-signings of) Carl Pavano to infuse the rotation with veteran depth.
And at the deadline last year, the Twins traded away one of their top prospects for the luxury of a reliever with closing experience at the back end of the bullpen in Joe Nathan's absence.
Over the years, this organization has consistently placed a premium on experience -- sometimes to a fault. So it surprises me that now, in a year where they will start three infielders without much history as major-league regulars, the Twins appear prepared to move forward with no veteran infield depth whatsoever. In fact, it makes me wonder if we won't see another move made sometime this month.
Regardless of your level of optimism regarding the team's middle infield experiment this year, it's important to acknowledge that Alexi Casilla and Tsuyoshi Nishioka are probably going to miss some time between them. Here are the number of games missed by Twins' Opening Day middle-infield combos over the past five years:
2010 (Hudson & Hardy): 97
2009 (Casilla & Punto): 119
2008 (Harris & Everett): 146
2007 (Castillo & Bartlett): 99
2006 (Castillo & Castro): 132
Whether because of injury, poor performance or trade, the Twins have annually gotten far fewer games than expected from their season-opening keystone combos. Unless Casilla and Nishioka can miraculously shatter that trend, we should expect to see other players getting significant time in the middle infield this year.
Last season, the Twins were well equipped to handle injuries from Hudson and Hardy because they had Casilla and Nick Punto in place as backups. Casilla was enjoying one of the best seasons of his career and Punto -- for all the grief he takes -- brings value in his ability to play strong defense at every infield position (most importantly shortstop).
Now Casilla is a starter and Punto is gone; in their stead the Twins figure to count on Matt Tolbert and a stable of marginal, totally unproven minor-leaguers like Trevor Plouffe and Luke Hughes. Being forced to rely on these players as regulars during a pennant race could prove problematic.
All of which is why it might make sense for the Twins to pursue a free agent like Orlando Cabrera here in February. He's now 36 and not very good, but one would think he'd have to be willing to take a low-dollar backup gig at this point, and he strikes me as a better fallback option than Plouffe (at the least, it couldn't hurt to have them both around). Cabrera has a lot of experience playing for contenders, and that was a big reason the Twins acquired him at the trade deadline in 2009 (and later credited him as an important figure in their run to the playoffs).
I have no illusions about Cabrera's caliber as a ballplayer, but he has significant experience playing shortstop in the major leagues, and with Hardy and Punto gone, that's something that no one else currently in the organization can claim. Knowing the Twins, that seems like an issue they'd want to address.
Wednesday, February 09, 2011
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24 comments:
Your logic about the Twins lost game time at the middle infield position is completely flawed.
You are saying because the Twins had other players that were injured, who played SS and 2B, that somehow translates into new people being injured there as well.
Hardy was well documented for his struggles with his injuries. Punto has been well documented for his exuberant play style, head first slides to first, and reckless fielding style.
Nishioka actually has a slight injury history, if you cared to even look, instead of making a wild leep in logic.
He's had mild neck, wrist, knee, feet, and hamstring injuries. But it should be noted that he has never missed significant time and played through most aches and pains.
Casilla has had almost no injury woes to speak of. Why not talk about either of these points? It would have added a lot to your blog, rather than just wild conjecture.
Well, Casilla did miss 45 games due to injury alone in 2010...including 43 in a stretch. I'd hardly call that "almost no injury woes".
Nick's point is less about injuries and more about depth. And he's right. Nishioka and Casilla are both unproven commodities, and if/when they need a breather we're relying on even more unproven commodities. Last season there was Punto on the bench, and Casilla as a fourth choice. Going from Punto and Casilla as your backups to Tolbert and Plouffe is a step down.
The Twins could do with a guy who can provide some level of reliability--even a guy like Cabrera provides a level of certainty. If there were a lot of upside in the guys who were waiting in the wings, that'd be one thing--but they don't.
Spot on, Rick. It's pretty hard to imagine that Valencia, Nishiokia, and Casilla are all going to play 150 games this year. I'd feel a lot better about having Cabrera in that mix.
You just Gardy is gonna turn to OCab the moment Casilla or Yoshi go 0-4 two games in a row. Managers just can't help themselves when it comes to favoring vets over young players. Call me negative, but I'm not in the mood for OCab's .300 OBP hitting second and crap defense again.
Nishioka actually has a slight injury history ... Casilla has had almost no injury woes to speak of.
Sounds to me like you're the one who hasn't done your homework.
You just Gardy is gonna turn to OCab the moment Casilla or Yoshi go 0-4 two games in a row.
So your argument is that the team should carry terrible backups so the manager won't be tempted to use them? What happens if his hand is forced?
I agree generally, but I have to nitpick. The Twins did bring in those players, but it was more for depth than preference for vets. After all, in many of the examples people cite, a minor leaguer takes over for the vet midseason.
The Twins have a philosophy of using their farm system and are usually one of the younger teams in baseball. When they bring in a mediocre veteran during the offseason, it's for insurance. You can always turn to the farm system when Ramon Ortiz struggles, but if you start the season with all your young players and one of them fails, what do you do?
When they bring in a mediocre veteran during the offseason, it's for insurance.
I never said otherwise. So why would they be willing to move forward with no such insurance on their infield experiment this season? Just because they're starting the young guys this time around doesn't mean they won't need that depth.
I like OC, and I'd be happy with them bringing in pretty much anyone to add depth there, but if they didn't bring back Punto for the amount they spend on Double Bubble every game, I don't see it happening.
I've said many times, probably even on this blog, the Twins middle infielders have really only been "starters" and "backups" in name only lately. The 2 positions have really been manned by 3 guys that play almost equally, with others mixed in.
And though there's something to be said for giving a young guy a chance to work through some stuff: a) Neither of these guys are exactly rookies, though one technically is b) At what point does, "working through things" become "just can't hack it"?
You could make a case that training people to walk the tight rope without a safety net makes everyone work harder, focus more, etc. That still doesn't change the fact that you're completely efed if you fall.
Anyone disagreeing with you hasn't looked at the Twins' bench for the season. Yes we have Thome, but we are stuck with Butera, Repko, while a great fielder doesn't have much of a bat, and Tolbert isn't Harmon Killebrew.
Adding Cabrera would be a huge upgrade. You could play him a few days a week and Casilla could fill in at second behind Nishi. That would keep all three fresher and limit over-exposure and chances of injury for the younger players as well.
Cabrera knows the team, the coaching staff and the organization. He's been in the playoffs the last umpteen years and would add much to the team.
Good call Nick.
"So why would they be willing to move forward with no such insurance on their infield experiment this season? Just because they're starting the young guys this time around doesn't mean they won't need that depth."
That's why I said I agree with you generally.
It's a fair point, I think. But the elephant in the room is the manager, and I suspect the manager would prefer to play the washed-up vet rather than let the younger guys play through some mistakes, which is also a concern. It's one thing to grab a vet as insurance against injury to Alexi or Nishioka, and another to have the same vet take healthy PT away from them because the manager likes his gritty presence.
The Twins have put a premium on experience in previous years, but have also gotten some nice performances from the young guys when they finally get a chance to play (Valencia, Kubel, Span, etc.).
I suspect the same (or even better) middle INF will be available via trade during the season, and I'm willing to roll the dice and see if the minor leagues can provide backups for now. Let's run through Tolbert, Plouffe, & Hughes and see if they can play enough before we give Gardy another washed-up veteran security blanket.
after you get thru the "Punto Sucks", and "Punto has pictures of Gardy" bs, the arguements came down to Punto is an excellant UTILITY infielder who should get 150-200 max AB's per season at like 750K. The problem being Gardy giving him 300 plus AB's and the Twins giving him 4 mil per. Unbelievable! Punto signing with St Louis for less than 1 mil is perfect. There is no way he would have resigned with the Twins for less than 2 mil. It just doesn't happen. Too lazy to do the research but I cannot remember of too many players resigning with their previous team for less than 25% of their previous years salary.
FYI, I posted that because vita mentioned Punto and we are talking about veteran utility infielders I think.
The funny thing about marginal veterans is how often they're less valuable than younger talent. Do you really know that O.C. Is a better SS at this stage of his career than Trevor Plouffe? How many of these guys have the Twins brought in over the past decade only to find out that they have nothing left? I hear Joe Crede is attempting another comeback. Let's bring him in too.
I agree with Nick's points and a bit surprised the Twins did not pursue a vetran as they've done in numerous years. As much as I like Danny Valencia at 3B I'm not sure he can repeat his last (half) year's performance. Perhaps it is time to pursue Michael Young. Yes, $$$ is an issue but he's a stud player who could fit well with the team at any infield position.
That's my story.
Man Nick, you've turned into a whine-y unprepared blogger. You offer almost no insight on the twins anymore!
And instead of actually responding to replies with consideration and research... You are just belittling people?
"Sounds to me like you're the one who hasn't done your homework."
Yeah, ok Nick.
Agreed, Glida. I think putting together a trade package for Young that includes Casilla and one of our extra starters would be a good start. Have Nishi at 2B, Young at SS, Valencia at 3B with Tolbert for a backup wouldn't look nearly as bad as what we have now. He'll also be able to provide some right-handed pop that we've been lacking.
That said, it'll never happen, but it's fun to dream.
Do you really know that O.C. Is a better SS at this stage of his career than Trevor Plouffe?
I don't, but it's not an either/or situation. Plouffe is going to be around either way; I'd rather let him stay in Triple-A long enough to post an OBP over .300 and earn the job rather than being forced to throw him into the fire during a tight battle for the postseason. If Cabrera merely repeats his performance from last year, he's serviceable in a pinch.
Yes, $$$ is an issue but he's a stud player who could fit well with the team at any infield position.
Unfortunately, money is a prohibitive issue in this case. Unless the Rangers were willing to foot somewhere around 75 percent of the bill I can't see the Twins taking on that salary.
And instead of actually responding to replies with consideration and research... You are just belittling people?
I didn't mean to sound overly glib, but you are accusing me of employing flawed logic and then stating things that simply aren't true.
To say "Casilla has had almost no injury woes to speak of" is completely disingenuous. He missed almost two months last year due to elbow surgery, and has battled numerous injuries in past years. He's never played even 100 games in a season, how can you state with any confidence that he's going to last longer than those players preceding him?
Nishioka has a long history of injuries. Last year was his first time playing a full season.
If you're going to accuse me of "wild conjecture," know your stuff.
Nick, your wild conjecture was completely ignoring the player's past injuries (whether they are or are not injury prone).
You only looked at the past players at SS, somehow saying that the past performance of other players could or would reflect on the current performance at SS.
No matter what a comment says, you still are guilty of tu quoque in your response. You are discrediting the poster's assertion about Casilla (Even if it was wrong) and then using that as a way to discredit him/her.
Don't take offense to someone who says your logic is wrong, it's a very valid point and should give you an opportunity to ellaborate more on your point if it is correct and simply needs more text to explain.
A few things to consider, the twins middle infield has missed many games in the past seasons, but as you say, the twins have typically went with veteran players. Veteran players have a tendency to be older, and older players tend to have more injuries.
Also, I don't know if you can say Nishi is injury prone, he's not missed that much game time (at most, 121 games) But considering most players don't play every single day anyway (take a look at most SS in the MLB, they take 10 days off every season).
Example, over the same span, Jeter has missed 91 days. I wouldn't call that span of his career injury prone. JJ Hardy has missed 343 days in 1 less year. Michael Young has missed 97...
The point is 121 missed games for a SS is nothing important or even a pattern.
Nick, your wild conjecture was completely ignoring the player's past injuries (whether they are or are not injury prone).
"Injury-prone" is mostly a myth. Do you really believe some players are more brittle than others? There are things that can make certain guys more vulnerable -- age, violent pitching motions or especially reckless play -- but for the most part injuries are the pure result of bad luck. Casilla and Nishioka have both experienced plenty of it in their careers. The vast majority of players in professional baseball could be labeled "injury-prone."
Veteran players have a tendency to be older, and older players tend to have more injuries.
Younger players have a tendency to not be good enough to stick. Why are we ignoring this fact? Are you forgetting that Casilla has twice handed away gift-wrapped starting jobs because he was flat-out awful?
No matter what a comment says, you still are guilty of tu quoque in your response.
I was accused of being "unprepared" and spouting "wild conjecture" by a person who didn't have his/her facts straight. How do you expect me to respond?
Over time I've come to learn that people don't enjoy reading long, rambling posts that detail every injury that Casilla or Nishioka has ever suffered.
They're baseball players and neither has been a major-league regular for even one full season, so it's plenty fair to expect injury or performance issues could derail either one.
To the anonymous person: please tone down the rhetoric. It isn't as though your opinions aren't without merit, but your tone is too confrontative from the get-go.
This is Twins Territory, let's be civilized.
[i]I was accused of being "unprepared" and spouting "wild conjecture" by a person who didn't have his/her facts straight. How do you expect me to respond?
[/i]
What facts were not straight? You certainly didn't counter any of the points made by the previous poster. You simply said "you're wrong" without offering any evidence.
Nick, you hand pick very small portions of people's comments and reply. You completely ignore the bulk of the comment.
Anyway, I think it's fairly worthless debating here, you don't want to discuss the interesting topics brought up and get very defensive when someone suggests you could be wrong or uninformed.
[i]
Nishioka has a long history of injuries. Last year was his first time playing a full season.[/i]
Someone gave you numbers stating the exact opposite. 121 games was it? In 6 years? Compare it around the league, that's not "A lot of injuries."
You don't have to detail every injury a player has had, but you could at least talk about THEIR injuries instead of other players injuries. You went into enough detail of the past twins players, giving us number for each combo, but you didn't compare them to Casilla and Nishi.
Anyway, your blog, your choice.
You went into enough detail of the past twins players, giving us number for each combo, but you didn't compare them to Casilla and Nishi.
Casilla has never played 100 games in an MLB season. Nishioka has never played 1 game in an MLB season. Fair to say they're both question marks, and that increases the importance of the depth behind them. I didn't think I needed to spell that out.
Can we be done with this conversation please? I'm tired of debating your multiple personalities.
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