The annual Winter Meetings are in full swing, and Santana is the hot topic. Numerous details about the Twins' talks with the Yankees and Red Sox have been popping up courtesy of various news outlets: Santana will not accept a trade during the 2008 season, Santana will not accept a trade to any team other than New York or Boston, the Yankees have imposed a 24-hour deadline at which point they will withdraw their offer (that deadline passed last night), so on and so forth. All these publicized details from what are supposed to be private trade discussions make me feel like getting back into my The Departed state of mind from last Friday and paraphrasing Sergeant Dignam: these negotiations have more leaks than the Iraqi navy.
Most of the details that have been leaked have been pretty weakly attributed ("a Twins official"; "a person familiar with the player's thinking"; etc.), so I'm not inclined to take a whole lot of these rumors too seriously. Yet, Yankees head honcho Hank Steinbrenner didn't feel the need to mask his identity when he came out and made the following comments to the New York Times:
Joe Christensen labeled Steinbrenner's comments "blatant tampering," which was also my first thought when I read them, at least given my understanding of how the league's tampering policies work. I'll be disappointed if Steinbrenner is not disciplined for his comments.“I don’t want to continue this dog-and-pony show, playing us against the Red Sox,” Steinbrenner said. “I’m not going to participate in that. This is our best offer. Minnesota knows it’s our best offer. Everybody knows it is.
“We need to get this done. If we don’t, I certainly won’t be upset about keeping Hughes and Cabrera. I definitely won’t. I don’t think Minnesota wants to be stuck negotiating with just one team.”
. . .
“How can I go any higher?” Steinbrenner said. “What do they want — Hughes, Kennedy and Cabrera? I can’t do that kind of thing. It’s crazy. It’s suicidal. In the past 20 or 30 years, teams have always asked more from the Yankees than they have of anybody else, and that’s going to stop. I’ve made the best offer Minnesota is going to get, and the fact is, it’s an offer we can go away happy and they can go away happy.”
There's a reason people dislike the Yankees, and this is a big part of it. They try to impose their will and intimidate all the smaller market clubs. What exactly gives Steinbrenner and the Yankees the leverage to impose a deadline (on Dec. 3, no less)? They are the buyers in this situation, not the sellers. The Twins have no obligation to trade Santana, as much as Steinbrenner seems to be acting like they do. If he wants to withdraw his deal -- which is far from overwhelming -- then so be it. After the way the Alex Rodriguez situation played out just over a month ago, I don't think anyone is buying into this deadline business anyway.
This period of uncertainty is excruciating for Twins fans, and doubtlessly even more so for the beat writers who have to try to keep tabs on all the rumors flying around. That said, it seems that for the time being it is in Bill Smith's best interest to remain firm and be patient. The decisions he makes here will be crucially important to the future of the franchise. He can't afford to let himself get played by the Big Bad Empire.
19 comments:
By "excruciating", do you mean fun? What else do we have to talk about right now? Drag this sucker out until Spring Training, I say.
We're baseball fans. We, unlike other types of sports fans, can apperciate anticipation.
I know the Twins need to gain from dealing Santana, but on some level, wouldn't it be great to just give him to Boston out of spite and say nothing of it? I'm pretty sure that'd be the end of Hank in New York.
kyle, agreed.
I'd love for us to keep johan.
And no I don't mean for one more year so eventually the Yankees will get them.
I really don't want to feel that slap.
I mean sign him.
If Pohald would stop being such ya...you know.
But I also would like to see him with the red sox just out of spite,too. I like the way you thnk. Hmmm what to do. I don't know if this deal is just a trade now. It seems more like a playground fight also.
Hopefully this time the Bully doesn't win.
I love the timing of the Pettite thing. I also love the fact that they're trying to pawn this off as a "Pettite is an elite lefty, so we don't really need Santana that bad" kind of thing....but I noticed the offer was still on the table come Tuesday morning.
Really, does anyone believe a word that comes out of that man's mouth? Kudos to BS for not getting pressured into a deal he didn't think was good enough.
Amen, Bill needs to stick to his guns
Yeah this is a good thing for Bill Smith. Yankees offer is good, but nothing any GM would jump on, especially when the winter meetings just started. Wait till the A's and O's ask for the Yankees top notch prospects and when Boston gets close to making a deal with the Twins; we'll see what the Yankees do then.
If I'm a Yankee I don't want to face the Sox who haven't changed anything to their starting roster (Coco or Ellsbury in center) except add the best pitcher in baseball. They're now even better than the team that won the division last year, they better make a big pick up somewhere else then.
Nick, I agree that this is "excruciating" (in fact, I used that exact word on MY blog) and I want it OVER. However, I am happy Smith didn't cave to the Yankees. Hank is acting like a typical Yankee exec, thinking he can get away with this BS and bully the new GM of the lowly Twins into doing what he wants. I say, "Stay strong Bill Smith." Don't be intimidated by him. Oh, and he better face some sort of disciplinary action for those comments. Bad, bad Hank!!
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AiHx.Z1OgFttfmw1f55qWNw5nYcB?slug=ap-wintermeetings&prov=ap&type=lgns
"Boston is thought to have offered Jon Lester, Clay Buchholz or Jacoby Ellsbury -- but only one of them -- as part of a deal."
That is the first rumor I have heard about Boston including Buchholz in a deal.
By "excruciating", do you mean fun? What else do we have to talk about right now? Drag this sucker out until Spring Training, I say.
I agree that it is exciting and fun to have the Twins involved in so many rumors, but this extended period of feeling like we're right on the verge of a deal is pretty brutal.
That is the first rumor I have heard about Boston including Buchholz in a deal.
I've heard some rumblings, but can't find anything substantiated. If Boston is willing to include Buchholz, things get interesting. I'd take Buchholz/Crisp over Hughes/Cabrera any day.
On another note, I've heard that the Angels have made a late entry to the discussions, which could add another twist.
i have only heard rumors about the twins trading johan and not any other players packaged with him. what are the odds we can dupe the sox into taking punto and rincon off our hands in this deal also?
what are the odds we can dupe the sox into taking punto and rincon off our hands in this deal also?
Punto: 0 percent.
Rincon: Maybe, but if the Rays passed on him after seeing his medical records I don't know why the Sox would be willing to take him.
While we wait for the Santana deal to come, the Tigers just pulled one off. According to Gammons on the ESPN winter baseball meetings blog:
The Tigers have won the Miguel Cabrera sweepstakes. Detroit will get Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis for six players -- Cameron Maybin, Andrew Miller, catcher Mike Rabelo and three minor league prospects.
Crap.
The rumored deal looks really underwhelming to me...
Site kinds ruins Hank S. Pretty funny.
http://mlbfleecefactor.com/2007/12/04/beavis-and-hank-steinbrenner/
Who's the Evil Empire?
Here's something Sox fans can chew on. Not only is 4/5 of their rotation imported,but unless they win the World Series next year, all they have is just another good team, but with a starting pitching staff -Santana included - earning more $ per year than AROD & THE WHOLE Yankee starting pitching staff COMBINED. The Evil Empire is upon us..and it's not the Yankeees
I don't know.
The sox fans crying every single year about the yanks spending etc was only because of out and out JEALOUSY. They were annoying as heck and transparent as all hlll.
So, now that the roles are being switched a bit, I can't kill em. Good for them, they are doing whatever it takes to win, so they are doing the right thing.
All those years of Sox fans crying and moaning made me swear never to be the same way.
Let the sox become the old yanks. They will suffer the same problems the yanks did.
And I got a feeling that this santana deal may be the first hiccup in their development of their own evil empire.
. You make decisions and sometimes they work and sometimes they don't. I dont blame the Redsox for trying to improve their team and I can appreciate what they have created. A good nucleus which with Santana will make them the team to beat.
With that said, I am a Yankee fan and will always root for them and when they play each other, I will again enjoy watching the Yankees win.....THE YANKEES WIN !
hopefully the Yankees will only get better in the next few years and hopefully mgmt. will make the right decisions during the off and on season
Let's take another look at things:
Yankees 2008 Probable Payroll:
Positional:
C - Posada: $13 million
C - Molina: $2 million*
1B - Giambi: $21 million
1B - Phillips: $ .5 million
2B - Cano: $3-4 million (arb)
SS - Jeter: $20 million
3B - Rodriguez: $27.5 million
OF - Matsui: $13 million
OF - Damon: $13 million
OF - Abreu: $16 million
OF - Cabrera: $ .5 million
UTIL - Duncan: $ .5 million
3B - Betemit: $2-3 million (arb)
Pitching:
SP - Pettite: $16 million*
SP - Mussina: $11 million
DL - Pavano: $10 million
SP - Wang: $5-6 million (arb)
SP - Igawa: $4 million
SP - Hughes: $ .5 million
SP - Kennedy: $ .5 million
SP - Chamberlain: $ .5 million
RP - Rivera: $15 million*
RP - Farnsworth: $5.5 million
RP - Bruney: $ .5 million
RP - Britton: $ .5 million
2008 Payroll High Arbitration Range: $204 million
Without Andy, Mo or Molina = $170 million
We still need another player for the bench and 2 relievers.
If Mo, Andy and Molina all return and arbitration figures are as high as I expect, payroll might go over the $208 million we had in 2006.
After 2008, we shed nearly $70 million in payroll and are unlkely to take on more than $30-40 million to replace the lost production.
Payroll will come down but it will be gradual.
Here is quite a lot of money coming off the books next year..
Giambi: $21M
Abreu: $16M
Mussina: $11M
Pavano: $11M
Farnsworth: $5.5M
Thats $64.5M. Lets assume Pettitte comes back, add $16 more that will come off. Thats $80.5M dollars that will come off the books.
Now there is a RF and 2 SP spots that need to get filled. Both could easily be filled with young guys. As far as the guys who are under contract, most of them have base salaries that wont be going up. Po and Mo will get raises, about $10 million dollars more combined for both of them. Wang and Cano will get substantial raises through arbitration or extensions so lets just say after next year, they'll have roughly $50-60 million off the payroll. I'd say a good amount of that will be spent in the great FA class next year anyway.
I am embarrassed a little that our payroll is so much higher than everybody else but the yankees have the most money so they spend the most money, its as simple as that. At least we know the steinbrenners arent putting money in their pockets out of greed like some franchises.
Redsox whiney Fans will complain about the Yankees payroll when Their team is second in terms of payroll. They just won world series this year..
Fact the yankee payroll had balloned to keep the nucleus together these players could have had and were offered higher deals else where.
Another fact,
OTHER teams had set the trend for balloned salaries with stupid deals (bartolo's angel deal, Zito) don't blame the yankees because the market rose due to other owners stupidity
First Option is put a Salary Cap in Baseball
Another option would be letting the market sort matters out. Let's try not to lose sight of the fact that Bolshevik Bud's Billionaire Boondoggle has only been in effect since 1997. I'm not sure how baseball survived up until that point, but Wikipedia confirms that it certainly did.
But I'm not entirely opposed to a salary cap. It just has to be set at the appropriate level so as to not unfairly hobble the better-managed and more-profitable franchises. Say, $20 million/team? Picture it - $1 ticket nights, cheap beer at the stadium, polygamists could finally afford to take the entire clan out to watch a ballgame. What could be better for baseball?
Quote:
Competitive balance IS good for baseball.
There was competitive balance before 1997, just like there is competitive balance after 1997. Just look at the facts:
World Series Champions, 1987 - 1997
1987 - Minnesota
1988 - Los Angeles
1989 - Oakland
1990 - Cincinnati
1991 - Minnesota
1992 - Toronto
1993 - Toronto
1995 - Atlanta
1996 - New York Yankees
1997 - Florida
Is that not competitive enough? Oakland, Florida, Minnesota, Cincinnati? These are the current welfare queens of baseball, raking in tens of millions in free cash every single season, which makes losing in 2007 as profitable as winning a World Series a decade earlier. If you're an owner simply looking to line your pockets that's the ultimate win-win situation.
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For Crying out loud , The Redsox gave Lugo four year and JD Drew five year deal... If Posada leaves, Who will replace him? The Yankees needs him.. Posada came up from Yankees farm system, The Yankees are loyal to their own players. Enough with the Payroll Okay, fine. The Indians beat the Yankees, and they have a much smaller payroll. So what? Payroll has never guaranteed anything, it just helps ensure more talent. The most talented teams often dont win the world series. Spending more doesn't guarantee anything in any business. You can spend the most on advertising, but that doesnt mean your product will outsell a competitor. And you know what? You wont see the company that spent less on advertising wont gloat or mention the difference in spending if they made more of a profit. When the Yankees won it all in 98, were you all praising them for having the 2nd highest payroll? The Indians beating the Yankees isnt impressive because of the dispairity in payroll. Its impressive because they are young and less expierenced, and the Yankees have so many great players. Its impressive because the Yankees have the best player in the game, and hall of famers all over the roster. I dont get why fans are using payroll as something to rub in the face of Yankee fans. Do you really think it bothers the Yankee fans that their owner invested more money in their team? All they care about right now is the fact that their season is over. They arent thinking about how many millions were spent. And it wasnt even a failure. They drew 4 million fans, made the playoffs, won 90 games...24 teams WISH they had a season as bad as the Yankees. Are the White Sox happy they only spent 108 mil? Are the Rangers happy with how much they spent? Im guessing if youre bringing it up, you probably think baseball needs a salary cap. But doesnt this season prove it doesnt? Or make for a difficult argument? D Backs 52 mil, Rockies 54, Tribe, 61 mil. Brewers made a heck of a run, 70 mil. Mets, Dodgers, White Sox, M's, Tigers, O's, Giants, Cards..all over 90 mil, and didnt make the playoffs. SO be happy they lost. But to bring up payroll? Thats just silly. They play within the rules, so it isnt unfair. It might be time to change the rule, but the Yankees arent cheating. And they are in the playoffs every year, how many teams can claim that? How many fans have seen their favorite players have to move on becaues the team couldnt afford it? Look at how many home grown players they kept for 10 or more years. Jeter, Mo, Posada, Bernie. We all wish our teams did that with their best home grown talent. I have beef with the Yankees about payroll too..because they overpay their own players, and that drives up salaries for everyone else. But t hats not their problem, thats MLBs problem. You dont like the structure, thats fine. Neither do i. But thats baseballs fault, not the Yankees. Glad they lost? Ok, enjoy the fact that a team with 4 Hall of Famers just fell. Take it to mean anythings possible. But to focus on the money that team spent? Thats dumb, sorry, it just is. Jeter's contract was so large b/c of Tom Hicks Yankees offered Bernie his contract in response to what the Red Sox offered him. Rivera got what guys like Robb Nen got, and so on. The Yankees never set the market, they went along with it. Look at Knicks? They spend so much money? Did they Buy them a championships? Salary Cap in Baseball As a Yankees Fan, I want Salary Cap in Baseball Once a for All just to shutup Yankees haters and Media. Every Media and The Yankees haters criticizing yankees for buying pennants and championships thru free agency. Yankees needs to prove doubters and Yankees haters wrong that They can win thru building thru farm system and salary cap in place.. Is it me that Media loves the Redsox more than Yankees because of "Underdog" role and lovable losers mentality until they won a championship in 2004? And Fact The Yankees are Evil and Redsox are good since Mr Larry Lucchinno aka Lucifer shouted "The Yankees are Evil Empire"! around the World.... The Yankees haters can't stand NY and what Ny represent for because They're Jealous . City like Ny has everything to offer unlike other cities in Usa. How would Larry aka Lucifer feel a team like Jets and Knicks haven't won championship for fourty years while Celtics won 16 championships and Patriots won 3 ? Every Boston sports Fan still moaning and crying because They haven't won championship for years. Please Mr.Selig, I want a Salary Cap in Baseball once a for all . I had enough of media critizing Yankees more than Redsox... "Everyone loves Redsox because they do it in right way. Like spending on Matsuzaka, Jd.Drew, Lugo. Eric Gagne... I bet Manny and Ortiz came thru Redsox farm system. Jason Varitek doesn't deserved The Captain since He never came up thru Boston Organization. He was traded from Mariners Organization along with Derek Lowe on Heathcliffe Slocumb trade. Redsox payroll is 6x more than Devil Rays Payroll..
Redsox payroll is $165 million and Drays is $25 million http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/b...icleid=1043916 .Of course, there is still a long way to go between here and there, but let?s all step back for a moment and acknowledge the obvious facts. From the moment John Henry, Tom Werner, Larry Lucchino and Theo Epstein took over the Red Sox five years ago, the Sox have not merely become bigger; they?ve thought bigger. Using the luxury tax formula, the Red Sox finished 2007 with a payroll in the range of $165 million, the highest in club history and roughly $30 million higher than they spent in 2006. Yankees Payroll next year for 2008 Contracts: A-Rod -27.5 Mil (up from 16 mil) Giambi - 21 mil Jeter - 20 mil Abreu - 16 mil Jorge - 13.1 mil Damon - 13 mil Matsui - 13 mil Moose - 11 mil Pavano - 11 mil Farnsworth - 5.5 mil Igawa - 4 mil That's 155 million for 11 players on the 40 man roster, not counting pro-rated signing bonues, manager, GM, money owed for traded contracts etc.. and the rest of the players on the roster, not to mention Petitte who will no doubt get a 3 year !
18 mil deal or something. It's easily going to be 225 mil or better. Pavano, Igawa, Moose, Giambi, and Farnsworth are all basically worthless anyway... Don't blame the yankees. It was Arod who went to Tampa to setup a Meetings with Steinbrenners and Cashman. Blame Scott Boras. I think Arod wants to return to Yankees without his meddling agent Scott Boras to talk to Hank and Cashman Everyone blames the Yankees for driving free agent prices up, but imagine if they were the team to stand up to Boras and stop taking his sh*t.
Why does Media continued to bash and treat Yankees likes a punching bag while Redsox have fun all in the world? Where is Double Standard? Nick your Twins Fan , Why Do you care? Everyone in the Media like continue sto criticize George Steinbrenner and his health condition because He doesn't speak anymore... George step down and no longer in power of the Yankees who gave it to his Sons Hank and Hal. When Hank speaks , The media mocked him because He can't be like his father. As a Yankee Fan, I like Hal because He's speaks to what on his mind. I don't see Media once mocked and teased Larry " Lucifer" Lucchinno and John Henry in any articles or blogs at all? Why is that ? Arod coming back has its positive and negatives. Positives. The Yankees come out looking very good, Arod came crawling back to them, and the Yankees didnt give in. However much you hate him,we need his production to make it to the post season. Mark my words, Posada is not going to have the same production he had in his walk year. Abreu without Arod is pretty meaningless. Abreu is illuminated by the fact that Arod hits behind him. The Red Sox are gonna be very good again next year. The Blue Jays are also about to become serious contenders in the A.L. east. Without Arod the Yankees could have, conceivably, finished in third place. No, Mike Lowell!! It didnt cost any young pitchers to get a good third baseman (Miguel Cabrrera). It gives the Yankees more room to wheel and deal. Now the Yankees could make a bid for Santana. They could end up next year with the best position player and the best starting pitcher. They could've never gotten both, Cabrrera, and Santana. Cano and Melky will probably very excited that he is back. Though Melky might not enjoy it for to long. Negatives. A lot of people were excited, and looking forward, to the Yankees being a team again, built on pitching, void of theses big money grubbing super stars, obviously this is all out'a the window. The circus is back in town. The whole Arod Jeter dynamic has to be, once more, reexamined. It might be a bit to much for a first year manager, Girrardi, to deal with. Didn't the Yanks WANT to make a good offer? Since when is 5/150 a bad extension offer? It wasn't enough to get a meeting why should it be on the table? If A-Rod truely wants to com back, let him take a reasonable offer of like 8/160-200 and them give the Yankees a 33.5 million dollar rebate (27 from texas PLUS the 40% luxury tax). Then I say sign him. The REAL reason why the Yankees didn't want A-Rod to opt out? Because Scott Boras wanted more for his client Arod.. I re-read the new collective bargaining agreement (Type A/Type B) and found this nugget. "There is also a set of quotas governing how many Type A and B players one club may sign as free agents in one winter, with that number determined by the total number of Type A and B players who elect free agency in that offseason. ? If fewer than 14 Type A or B players elect free agency, no club may sign more than one such player. ? If 15-38 Type A or B players elect free agency, no club may sign more than two such players. ? If 39-62 Type A or B players elect free agency, no club may sign more than three such players. ? If 63 or more Type A or B players elect free agency, "the Club quotas shall be increased accordingly," according to the basic agreement. This Offseason only 47 fall under that discription The Yankee Type A players this Offseason.......Posada/A-Rod/Pettitte/Rivera Only three of them can be re-signed or given a contract facing free agency..
Under the new collective barganing agreement rules once the Yankees sign 3 Type A Free Agents, they can't sign the (Hunter/Lowell/A-Rod/ or any other players that fall under that discription) to contracts. The Whole Money issue is also apart of the reason but this is a big reason why the Yankees are pretty much out of the A-Rod/Lowell race once the big 3 are signed. How is pettitte considered a free agent though if he is just invoking a players option? If Pettitte filed for Free agency before he accepts or declines his option then Yes he does count as one of the 3 If he didn't file for free agency then he won't count as one of the three. I read New Collecting Bargaining Agreement from Mlb.com and Wikipedia So Redsox didn't buy a championship in 2007? Did Redsox won championship in 2007 after beating a small market team Colorado Rockies? Jd Drew, Lugo, Matsuzaka, Okajima.. It's always Yankees Fault. They're ruining baseball meanhwhile Redsox is not being blame. Where is double standard?
Twinkies Ticked At Hank?
From the Star Tribune Blog -
http://www.startribune.com/blogs/neal/?p=282
A Twins official this morning confirmed that the club is not pleased with comments made by Yankees senior vice president Hank Steinbrenner about negotiations involving ace lefthander Johan Santana.
When asked if he thought the comments constituted tampering, the official replied, “We’re not happy. We’ll deal with this internally.'’
It’s unsure if the Twins will pursue tampering charges, but it’s definitely added even more spice to the Twins attempts to trade Santana.
Unless the Twins have some video of Hank making those statements, I doubt they have a case here. Besides, everyone and their mother knows that the Twins are shopping Santanna and that the Yankees and Red Sox have been talking to them about him. This is not a case where an owner, out of no where, says "Hey, Babe Ruth is going to be a Free Agent after this season and we would have to have him play for us next year."
Brass tacks, the Twins have been playing the Yankees and Hank called them out on that. That's what has the Twins' twisted here...and, to that, I say "Aw, Gee...too bad."
According to Ken Rosenthal - Twins are considering filing tampering charges against Hank and Yankees. So, The Twins are pissed about Hank running his mouth about the trade rumors. Everyone hates Yankees period not Redsox. The Redsox got reprieve when Dodgers dropped all tampering charges against Redsox
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7521692?CMP=OTC-K9B140813162&ATT=49
# The Twins, expected to resume discussions with the Yankees and Red Sox about left-hander Johan Santana on Monday, are considering filing tampering charges against the Yankees because of Hank Steinbrenner's public comments about the pitcher, according to a major-league source. Meanwhile, the Twins also are discussing trades involving closer Joe Nathan, with the Astros being one possible suitor.
Blame Redsox Fans aka Terrorists for this ...With Andy Pettite returning to pitch next year . I think Redsox Fans feel need to do this. They're sending emails to Twins Organization about Hank comments trading for Santana. Redsox want Santana for themselves and prevent Yankees getting him
Like NY Times Tyler Kepner reported last year about about JD "Nancy" Drew opting out on his contract so Redsox Brass negotiate with him and offered him more money. Even Fat A** Curt Schilling even called JD Drew If He wanted to play with Redsox. The Dodgers accuse Redsox for tampering but They decided to let go.
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