tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11215059.post1556530802126849558..comments2023-12-19T20:25:36.069-06:00Comments on Nick's Twins Blog: Nathan Shuts the Door on MinnesotaNick N.http://www.blogger.com/profile/00848574337121154690noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11215059.post-2446587346381087082011-11-25T22:46:54.548-06:002011-11-25T22:46:54.548-06:00Enough closer talk. Closers are the last piece of...Enough closer talk. Closers are the last piece of a contending team's puzzle. This team has more pressing issues.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11215059.post-48407895673431864332011-11-23T14:48:27.929-06:002011-11-23T14:48:27.929-06:00Cutting payroll while rebuilding is completely und...<i>Cutting payroll while rebuilding is completely understandable, if you can see evidence that the team is really building towards something.</i><br /><br />They are rebuilding. Cuddyer, Kubel and Capps are all likely to leave, yielding four extra high picks in next June's draft. Prospects like Dozier, Benson and Gutierrez can come up next year and get some experience in the majors IF they prove ready, which one of them have yet. <br /><br />Signing veterans to cheap, short-term contracts does not impede the team's rebuilding process in anyway. It simply puts a more watchable product on the field in 2012 while improving the hopes of contention if everything happens to break right with guys like Mauer, Morneau, Span, Baker and Liriano.Nick N.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00848574337121154690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11215059.post-70614773812455731422011-11-23T11:33:13.617-06:002011-11-23T11:33:13.617-06:00"You keep saying this, but again I'll ask..."You keep saying this, but again I'll ask again: what do you want them to do? Completely punt the 2012 season and lower payroll by tens of millions of dollars, enraging folks like you? "<br /><br />They're already lowering payroll by $15-20 mil...so they're trying to tread water while cutting payroll. Cutting payroll while rebuilding is completely understandable, if you can see evidence that the team is really building towards something. But cutting payroll while telling fans you're trying to compete makes zero sense. That's what upsets intelligent fans. I'll ask again: what is this organization's 5-year plan? It seems the club is satisfied with being mediocre year in and year out, rather than taking some lumps here and there to build to something greater (see the early 80s Twins for an example of this). <br /><br />What do I want them to do? Get younger! Why not throw some young guys into the mix, even if it is a year early? Why not see if Dozier can win the SS job, or Gutierrez can be the closer, or Parmalee/Benson/etc. can win a job in spring training. Again, see the Twins of the early 80s. <br /><br />By signing Carroll, for example, the Twins are going to have no motivation to promote Dozier, so by the time he gets to the bigs he's going through the learning curve at 26,27 rather than 23,24. We're wasting years of MLB contributions.<br /><br />The team isn't going anywhere in 2012 - you said it yourself. Why not really see what you've got in the system, and adjust the draft philosophy accordingly? This solves the payroll problem as well.<br /><br />Either cut payroll and rebuild, or spend and "contend." Pick one. You say we need to be honest about where the team is at, yet you put together a blueprint that solves zero of the Twins problems long-term. Are YOU honest about where this team is at?Ed Bastnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11215059.post-48224230423073331562011-11-23T10:54:48.571-06:002011-11-23T10:54:48.571-06:00Right, so instead of finding stopgap solutions to ...<i>Right, so instead of finding stopgap solutions to contuining problems, perhaps the club should be taking a longer view?</i><br /><br />You keep saying this, but again I'll ask again: what do you want them to do? Completely punt the 2012 season and lower payroll by tens of millions of dollars, enraging folks like you? <br /><br />The fact is that by letting long-term staples like Nathan and Cuddyer walk, the Twins ARE taking a long-term view. Making short, low-money commitments to players who can help the cause over the next year or two, if things break right, doesn't interfere with that process. <br /><br /><i>The Twins had a top-10 payroll last year. Even in the $100 million range, the club will still be in the top half. Think fans of the Tampa Bay Rays bemoan their club's "limited funds?"</i><br /><br />I'm not "bemoaning" anything; I'm stating a fact. The overall payroll number means little when such a huge chunk of it is consumed by existing contracts. Ryan has about $12 million to fill several remaining holes -- that's what we call "limited funds."Nick N.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00848574337121154690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11215059.post-713595407202637752011-11-23T07:39:49.154-06:002011-11-23T07:39:49.154-06:00Gents, I don't believe it was "all about ...Gents, I don't believe it was "all about the money" at all, I'm just saying that's the way you could interpret St. Peter's quote. Either way St. Peter wasn't trying to make Nathan look good.<br /><br />"I think people need to come to terms with where this franchise is at right now."<br /><br />Right, so instead of finding stopgap solutions to contuining problems, perhaps the club should be taking a longer view?Ed Bastnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11215059.post-39959004525992975532011-11-23T02:04:11.878-06:002011-11-23T02:04:11.878-06:00even though the Twins seem to be worse off this of...even though the Twins seem to be worse off this offseason than they've been in years, just having Ryan back in the office brings some peace of mind. Sure, they shouldn't be expected to win next year. But Ryan's best suite seems to be smart and quick rebuilding. or is it making sure his club is full of overachievers? <br />letting nathan walk was the right move. lets see what TR can do!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11215059.post-92154001939909460242011-11-22T22:25:37.968-06:002011-11-22T22:25:37.968-06:00Here is Tweet 1 from Smith on Nathan:
Joe and Lis...Here is Tweet 1 from Smith on Nathan:<br /><br />Joe and Lisa Nathan = Class Acts. Many contributions on the field and in community. THX for 8 great years with Twins. Best of luck in Texas.<br /><br /><br />Here is Tweet 2 from Smith on Nathan:<br /><br />We got rid of Joe? He left as a free agent RT @TheRealHORN12: my wife wants me to turn in my season tix cuz you got rid of @JoeNathan36<br /><br /><br />Here is Tweet 3 - the offending one:<br /><br />Never given the chance. RT @tsmbain: Really. The Twins couldn't match Texas' offer?<br /><br />Sorry, I don't see how that is a shot at Joe Nathan. Its just a statement of fact in response to a pointed question.<br /><br />"I would be shocked if Capps had a better year in 2012 than Dotel"<br /><br />I would be shocked if the didn't. <br /><br />"I view him as the same kind of player as Todd Coffey"<br /><br />Coffey had a better than average year last year and he still wasn't as good as Capps in a down year.TThttp://grannybaseball.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11215059.post-76373487459539815882011-11-22T18:57:21.536-06:002011-11-22T18:57:21.536-06:00I agree. But the current state of the franchise ha...<i>I agree. But the current state of the franchise has little to do with those 99 losses. The majority of the current roster wasn't around for most of them.</i><br /><br />Huh?USAFChiefnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11215059.post-21105426653312737252011-11-22T18:51:35.668-06:002011-11-22T18:51:35.668-06:00Now the Twins don't need to offer arbitration ...Now the Twins don't need to offer arbitration to Capps to get a pick. The Twins have 4 picks coming to them by letting the three remaining free agents walk. <br /><br />And TT: I would have Perkins close, Dotel pair with Duensing as situational setup men, and Coffey (or LaTroy Hawkins) be the middle reliever. The Twins can fill in the rest from within.<br /><br />And I would be shocked if Capps had a better year in 2012 than Dotel. I view him as the same kind of player as Todd Coffey (but Coffey might come at half the price).Shane Wahlhttp://fieldoftwins.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11215059.post-40763970524419648312011-11-22T18:50:35.238-06:002011-11-22T18:50:35.238-06:00I would rather play for Texas too. Going to the ...I would rather play for Texas too. Going to the Series back to back, while the Twins have 99 losses and are cutting salaries.... easy call. Nolan Ryan has the Rangers going in the right direction. More power to 'em. <br /><br />Joe was getting on in years and he needed one more big score. I am not bitter towards him at all.<br /><br />But we haveholes to fill. I would prefer a youth movement. Kubes fits that, Cuddy not so much.Kelly Vnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11215059.post-16523184301074775332011-11-22T17:33:48.234-06:002011-11-22T17:33:48.234-06:00TT, how can you say it isn't a jab at Nathan? ...TT, how can you say it isn't a jab at Nathan? If not a jab, what is it? Sour grapes? I don't agree with Ed's conclusion that it was "all about the money", clearly Nathan earned the right to play wherever he wanted for whatever reasons he wanted. As a free agent, that's his right. Winning is a valid reason. <br /><br />St. Peter implies that Nathan owed the Twins the courtesy to match the offer. This comment clearly places the blame on Nathan for leaving, a shallow attempt to deflect the blame from the front office for not singing him. Once the Twins declined his option, Nathan didn't owe them anything. For St. Peter to imply anything else is disingenuous.cy1timenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11215059.post-42430037746540451082011-11-22T16:52:17.247-06:002011-11-22T16:52:17.247-06:00Nick wrote:
"...Ryan will face the tall task...Nick wrote:<br /><br />"...Ryan will face the tall task of rebuilding the solid foundation he constructed in the early-to-mid 2000s, with limited funds..."<br /><br />The Twins had a top-10 payroll last year. Even in the $100 million range, the club will still be in the top half. Think fans of the Tampa Bay Rays bemoan their club's "limited funds?"<br /><br />Let's not use money as an excuse. The Twins are in the state they're in because of four appallingly bad trades (the Santana, Young, Hardy, and Ramos deals, executed by Bill Smith.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11215059.post-42593866090601546202011-11-22T16:19:06.674-06:002011-11-22T16:19:06.674-06:00The reason Nathan signed with Texas is he believes...The reason Nathan signed with Texas is he believes he has the best opportunity to be a part of a World Series winner. He said that was his priority and who can blame him. At his age he is not going to get many more seasons as a closer let alone on a championship team. He could not wait around for the Twins to be competitive again. I wish him well.PKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11215059.post-32616657998549460442011-11-22T15:31:56.148-06:002011-11-22T15:31:56.148-06:00"St. Peter is saying, Gee, after all we did f..."St. Peter is saying, Gee, after all we did for this guy, and he didn't even give us the courtesy of matching the offer. The implication that "it was all about the money" for Joe"<br /><br />How does NOT going back to the Twins for an offer make it "all about the money"? The fact is it wasn't about the money, it was about winning. The Twins could compete on price, they couldn't compete on the likelihood he would win a ring. <br /><br />"The Twins lost 99 games this year. I think people need to come to terms with where this franchise is at right now."<br /><br />I agree. But the current state of the franchise has little to do with those 99 losses. The majority of the current roster wasn't around for most of them.<br /><br />But it ought to be clear that the Twins can't compete for free agents with the top teams like the Rangers, Phillies and Red Sox. If this were last winter, I think Cuddyer and Nathan would already be signed by the Twins. While its not impossible, the Twins as a ticket to the playoffs looks a lot more doubtful this off-season.TThttp://grannybaseball.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11215059.post-77645353682010487822011-11-22T14:12:06.698-06:002011-11-22T14:12:06.698-06:00This quote from Nathan says it all about the state...<i>This quote from Nathan says it all about the state of this franchise: "One of our goals was to find a contender and get back and pitch in some big games ASAP."</i><br /><br />Is this statement surprising to you in some way? The Twins lost 99 games this year. I think people need to come to terms with where this franchise is at right now.Nick N.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00848574337121154690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11215059.post-4960220447992558772011-11-22T14:09:32.531-06:002011-11-22T14:09:32.531-06:00Get rid of Gardy. Get rid of any player that curr...Get rid of Gardy. Get rid of any player that currently costs money (bye bye Cuddy, Baker, Kubel, Justin, Joe) and start over from scratch. Use the money saved to rebuild the minors and move the best of them up to the parent club to learn on the job. We will lose for three years, but losing isn't so hard to take when you are watching promising kids develop. Also, jettison Jose and Capps. They are both really fat.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11215059.post-11582888234872056522011-11-22T13:46:02.820-06:002011-11-22T13:46:02.820-06:00TT, it's certainly a jab, St. Peter is saying,...TT, it's certainly a jab, St. Peter is saying, Gee, after all we did for this guy, and he didn't even give us the courtesy of matching the offer. The implication that "it was all about the money" for Joe. This is the Twins' PR machine at work here. They are leading the fans to believe they would have spent the money to keep Nathan. It's damage control for the fact they're cutting payroll. It's brilliant PR: if the outcry about their cutting payroll gets too loud, they'll just say, hey, we really WANTED to spend more, but we can't help it if our free agents won't take out money. A complete lie, but an unprovable one.<br /><br />Gosh, just think if some of the members of the front office were as dedicated and skilled at putting together a baseball team as they are at profit-making and PR.Ed Bastnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11215059.post-74104274903044151302011-11-22T13:22:14.223-06:002011-11-22T13:22:14.223-06:00"I might ask why their front office would tak..."I might ask why their front office would take a jab at a consumate professional like Joe Nathan."<br /><br /><br />I don't see any jab at anyone. Almost any player in baseball is going to choose a team that was just in the World Series over one that just lost 99 games.<br /><br />I suppose if you think there is something wrong with that, it is a jab. But I suspect most people in professional baseball understand its a business.TThttp://grannybaseball.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11215059.post-23226901070489573192011-11-22T12:29:11.548-06:002011-11-22T12:29:11.548-06:00This quote from Nathan says it all about the state...This quote from Nathan says it all about the state of this franchise: "One of our goals was to find a contender and get back and pitch in some big games ASAP."Ed Bastnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11215059.post-9528277301871739172011-11-22T11:14:12.677-06:002011-11-22T11:14:12.677-06:00"If I were a potential free agent considering..."If I were a potential free agent considering signing with the Twins, I might ask why their front office would take a jab at a consumate professional like Joe Nathan."<br /><br />If you're a free agent with enough leverage to do this, sure you would. Which is why we don't sign premier or even mid-tier free agents. Why would you take less money to play for a classless organization who doesn't care about the postseason?<br /><br />It's truly pathetic that St. Peter would take the opportunity to suggest the Twins would have spent the money to keep him if only Nathan would've let them. Another blatant lie from a front office that's cutting payroll. When are fans going to wise up to this pattern of deception?<br /><br />Year 3 of Target Field, which all us fans paid for because we were told it would allow us to "sign free agents" and "compete". Well, we've got Nathan and Cuddy leaving, and our big-time free agents so far are a 38-year old journeyman and an oft-injured backup. Reminds me a lot of Mike Lamb and Adam Everett, except that at least Mike Lamb had a history of starting.Ed Bastnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11215059.post-14953737393069882032011-11-22T10:46:00.441-06:002011-11-22T10:46:00.441-06:00I definitely have mixed feelings about this. Of c...I definitely have mixed feelings about this. Of course he has a right to pursue other options. But it's still irritating to see your team pay $24.5 million over two years for the guy to rehab/be injured for about 1.25 season and pitch poorly the other .75 season he wasn't on the DL, only to bolt when he seems to be healthy and coming around.<br /><br />All the same, had the Twins resigned Nathan for two years for $14.5 million, I would have felt it was too high. Still, this is going to leave a big question mark for closers for the Twins this year.<br /><br />I guess it just makes the offseason that much more interesting for the Twins. Especially with Cuddyer and Kubel likely to walk and Capps not likely to make $7 million if he does come back to the Twins, this does at least open up more money to pursue free agents.Mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11215059.post-36909072294969950072011-11-22T10:31:21.742-06:002011-11-22T10:31:21.742-06:00Nathan did us a favor by leaving. 2 years and 14....Nathan did us a favor by leaving. 2 years and 14.5 million for a relief pitcher that is 37y/o and coming off TG surgery the year prior? Teams still haven't figured out that relief pitching is overvalued by millions of dollars. Nathan had a WAR of 0.0 last year. Since 2007 his value had been steadily dropping. From 2004-2007 Nathan averaged over 3 WAR a season. That for a relief pitcher is amazing. Unfortunatly his prime is gone. He has value still but not in the length and amount given out by Texas. Not even close. I hope Nathan the best but the Twins came out winners by having Texas sign him.<br />SeanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11215059.post-49801486918511292092011-11-22T10:13:02.602-06:002011-11-22T10:13:02.602-06:00"Octavio Dotel and Todd Coffey can be had for..."Octavio Dotel and Todd Coffey can be had for $6 million combined."<br /><br />Maybe, but not likely by the Twins. <br /><br />Both of those two players were pitching setup, got less than an inning per appearance and got less than 60 innings total. <br /><br />Dotel other numbers look great last year, but his numbers the previous two years were terrible and he is 38 years old. Coffee also had his best year in a long time and faced 20 fewer batters than a struggling Capps and got 18 fewer outs. <br /><br />Its unlikely either of them would be better than Capps next year. And you certainly wouldn't sign them to be closers unless you were desperate.TThttp://grannybaseball.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11215059.post-29897773781205861712011-11-22T09:54:46.615-06:002011-11-22T09:54:46.615-06:00Josh -
The decision of whether to offer Capps arb...Josh -<br /><br />The decision of whether to offer Capps arbitration won't be made until next month.TThttp://grannybaseball.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11215059.post-86317252567523925402011-11-22T09:53:34.158-06:002011-11-22T09:53:34.158-06:00Matt Capps needs to follow him out the door unless...Matt Capps needs to follow him out the door unless he wants to pitch the 7th inning for $2.5 million or less. There is ZERO reason to sign him otherwise, and offering him arbitration would be completely insane. <br /><br />Edwin Jackson? No. Ryan Madsen = more expensive than Nathan. Get real, people. Octavio Dotel and Todd Coffey can be had for $6 million combined.Shane Wahlhttp://fieldoftwins.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.com